To begin to answer the above I immediately thought of Matthew 28:19-20a; "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."
I also remembered someone saying in one of the local Churches that all we need to do to convert more people to the Christian faith is "preach the Gospel".
I have to ask two questions regarding the above. First what was it that Jesus wanted the nations to observe? Second what exactly is the Gospel?
Further are the concepts of "teaching" and "preaching" the correct way for the Church to attempt to exert influence? Or should the Church act as a doorway to the transforming power of God?
I invite you to share your thoughts!
Shalom
Stephen
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A quick thought or two: disciples are followers or learners, yes, and Jesus seemed to have wanted people to live a certain way rather than believe certain things. So, can church be a model of that way, can we truly be "people of the way" and a way that people might follow? There are many ways of preaching but doing is always more powerful than saying, it seems. I guess also that the church always does influence society in some way, but we ought perhaps to ask, what is that influence and is it the right one? Hey, more questions than answers but there lies progress (I hope). Blessings all.
I aim to give a more considered in due course but I would like to post this story from a recent edition of the West Britain.
"There has been an "incredible" responseto plans to introduce street pastors in Camborne, with 3o people volunteering to take on the role and donations of more than £10,000. Earlier in the year, rector of the parish church the Rev Mike Firbank announced that he wanted to make the town the first in Cornwall to introducing night time Christian patrols.
Under the scheme, teams of four would tour known hotspots between the hours of 10pm - 3am offering to support to people on the streets.
As well as listening and caring, the "street pastors" would provide a link via the church to external services, such as drugs and alcohol support to help get lives back on track."
The scheme is backed by town and district councillors, Police Chiefs and other churches in the town.
Shalom friends
Two things I want to focus on at the moment.
1) What were the commands of Jesus to the disciples?
I stand to be corrected (happily)but I have only found one specific commandment in the gospels. (The references are John 13:34; John 15:12) Both references refer to the same commandment. Love one another as I have loved you. (It could also be stated that the commandments to love God and love your neighbour as yourself are advocated by Jesus.)We then have to ask how did Jesus love his disciples? (Perhaps you would like to read the gospels for yourselves and to find out.)Would our conclusions help us to create a template from which the Church can begin to make disciples of all nations? Further Matthew's testimony that Jesus advocated that all disciples should be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Sorry that I missed out "the Father" in the original post!!!!) is not repeated in any of his teaching in the gospels. In Matthew 10 for example the 12 disciples are sent out with the following instructions. "Preach this message; The kingdom of heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons" (NIV) Hmmm, I wonder if Jesus did say those words in Matthew 28 19-20or are they a later concept?
2) What is the Gospel? Paul says in Romans 1:16 that it is "the power of God for salvation of everyone who believes." In verse 17 of Romans chapter 1 Paul goes onto say that "in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed." So we have gospel = Salvation + Righteous = TRANSFORMATION? Is the gospel the good news that God can transform the human systems and behaviour that are found within nations, communities and individuals for the better? I like to think so.
What do you think
Shalom friends
Just a comment Julyan regarding your observation about Jesus wanting people to live in a certain way rather than believe certain things.
Are you saying that Jesus believed action (living a certain way) and beliefs (believing certain things) can be seperate? or are you saying that Jesus offered a different set of life values to the ones advocated by his opponents, namely the Pharisees?
Jesus for example promotes through his actions his beliefs of the "kingdom values" of justice, mercy and good faith with the intention of bringing freedom and acceptance life and hope. Likewise the Pharisees. To be fair to the Pharisees they might also have believed that they were offering the right values that God desired. Piety, ritual, strict religious observance. However their living interpretation seems to bring division, unacceptance, misery powerlessness and even death. Both desire to influence society but have different ways of going about it. One however seems more positive and humane than the other!
Shalom friends
Thanks trinityblogger, much to think about. A few responses, then, perhaps joined up, perhaps not. Thinking about how to make disciples ought perhaps to lead us first to think about what a disciple looks like, and of course the essential prior question, what was the Jesus like of whom we might be disciples? Who and what Jesus is to each of us will influence our vision of what it is to be a disciple, should we choose to follow that road? It is interesting to note the change (progression?) in the thinking about Jesus from Mark’s source, through Mark, on into Matthew and Luke and then into John. We have then also the post-canonical (after the setting of the Bible, or should I say Bibles, there being a number of views as to what is and is not canonical / “properly” Scripture) development of Christology (words / thoughts / understanding about nature / person of Jesus / Christ), through the various councils of the churches and developed and set down in the various creeds and of course still developing today – eg the Jesus of history / Christ of faith debate. Who is this Jesus we are to follow and what does it mean to follow? There is that old question, “If you were arrested for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you?” What would count as evidence? Is it about beliefs, doctrines we assent to? Surely not; although in these days of terrorism thought crime appears to be a possibility, it is generally not regarded as sufficient to convict people of anything. Conviction would normally demand the proof of certain activity. What activity would constitute sufficient evidence to convict one of being Christian? Churchgoing? Hardly! Being kind? Hardly! Praying? Not confined to Christianity. Believing in God? How many faiths are there? So what is it that Jesus brings specifically as a way for us to follow? Borg makes the case that Jesus preached an inclusive compassion code against a dominant holiness code of his day that excluded people from the experience of God. Compassion might then be a good place to start and certainly compassion is key to any description that we might want to make of this shadowy Galilean. But there is more. Jesus comes to us as perhaps a wisdom teacher, and it is interesting to compare descriptions of the Sophia (wisdom) of God and Jesus (see Borg and Meeting Jesus again for the First Time), but whence this wisdom? Jesus is a spirit man, he is a human being with an extraordinary (Christianity would want to say unique) experience of God, closeness to God, life in God. It is that we are, I think, invited to know for ourselves, to find in the exercise of compassion the God who is known in our neighbour, in stranger and friend. For the church to live like that opens up the possibility of the transforming power and presence of God not only for those beyond it but also again and again for those who count ourselves within it. Certainly not all those who opposed Jesus were Pharisees and not all Pharisees opposed Jesus, but it seems to me that Jesus and maybe some Pharisees saw that the holiness codes kept people from God and that they allowed Jewish society to develop a systemic injustice based on religious rules which for many could not be kept. Question: does the church open people to the possibility of God or close that option for them? Asking people to believe what they deem unbelievable is doomed to failure; asking people to share a way of living / to engage in the possibility of God with something akin to the faith of (rather than in) Jesus may also fail, but it is, I think, nearer to what we learn from Jesus and allows us to engage in God’s mission with open hearts and minds. Enough already! Blessings to all our bloggers and readers.
Thanks, Julyan, for the questions in your latest post. I am one of those befuddled by the "Jesus of history/ Christ of Faith" differences (though I don't have much knowledge of specific arguments in the debate.) The books I have looked at on bookshop and library shelves which claim to be putting forward "the Jesus of history" view nearly always seem to be propounding some novel theory likely to dismantle any "Christ of Faith" belief which I still have left (and I'm not talking about the wackier end of the market - "Da Vinci Code" et al!) So far, the idea of a Christ who invites us to relationship with God which in some way energises us to live in the compassionate way you describe, is something I have need of and something which stops me falling into the inactivity of despair. Biblical literalism and liberal "It's all in the Christian togetherness that we'll find God" have both let me down, so it would be good to find some other clues; or even something by which to check whether the sense of intimacy with a mysterious but understanding God, (which I get from conversational prayer, drinking in the beauty and inexorability of natural processes and cycles, and straightforward human relationships where neither person is seeking to dominate the other,) - whether this sense of real intimacy is just an illusion because it's what I WANT to be real? To quote Sydney Carter, "However can you tell?"
God bless.
Thanks pinxit; that sounds like the Jesus of history to me, at least the one I know who has become the Christ of my faith (I hope that helps and makes sense; it does for me). I'm hoping to share a DVD series in the new year (if I can find the time); it deals with some of these questions. I've been going through it myself over the last couple of weeks in preparation and have found it very helpful as well as being challenging. Wonderful section today on the resurrection and fear. I like Borg on the History / Faith question; he rings bells for me. Shalom.
Thanks Julyan, Pinxit. Compassion is certainly key for me. Having a compassionate nature is something I desire for myself, but it seems that there is a struggle within me. On the one hand I want to be merciful towards others less fortunate than me and to forgive those who in one way or another do me wrong or upset me. However there is another side that says the important thing is SELF, SELF SELF. I would admit that showing generosity can be a matter of sheer will at times. The irony is that it is in compassionate and generous action I feel happy and good about myself, yet so often I am too ready to criticise other peoples behaviour and actions, and feeling this way makes me miserable as I feel this is not the real me. (maybe I need to be more compassionate to myself) I like to think of myself as an encourager. I think the answer is to change my mind set. To have that open heart and mind you mention Julyan which hopefully will lead to an energising of my compassionate nature that you mention Pinxit through the developing intimate relationship with Jesus.
Shalom friends
Thanks trinityblogger, you touch on some important things about discipleship as real human beings and not as plaster saints. The urge to put self first is a deep seated one (The Selfish Gene?) and to act against that instinct for self-preservation is counter-intuitive. I think you are right to see compassion as something that is developed – rather as a muscle needs exercise to develop and become stronger. There are all sorts of ways that we validate our lack of compassion and not all of them necessarily bad – "I am caring for my family so I can't care for so and so." The ability to reflect honestly on our actions and our motives and to understand them for what they are seems a necessary element of a compassionate nature and one that doesn't do harm to others even by attempting to do good ("All you love is need"). What is true for us as individuals is, I think, also true of us corporately as churches. Churches can get just as hung up on self-preservation (ME, ME, ME) and any individual. Chris Argyris talks about "espoused theory" and "theory-in-use", that is what we say drives our thoughts and actions and what in reality drives them. We have used our annual meetings are opportunities for self-examination in that area but it is something that needs to be part of a continuing cycle of action and reflection. In all this, the humanity of Jesus is essential. The Jesus of the stained glass window or the divine Jesus who doesn't really touch or be touched by our common flesh is of no use. That's why the story of Jesus changing his mind in the Samaritan woman / dogs story is so important to me. It is a picture of vulnerability yes, but also of readiness to learn, to step outside the norms of religion and society, to take the risky road. God bless us with such courage.
I've been thinking about what both Trinityblogger and Julyan have said about selfishness and the importance of checking our own motivation, as individuals and as a church. My question is a practical one, in a sense: Have you ever been paralysed by doing this? In other words, as a result of examining motivation, you conclude that very little if any of what you ever do is Godly motivated. If you've had this experience, how do you deal with it, i.e. avoid constantly having to grovel in penitence and get on with doing something positive in the world?!! This is a real problem for some people (I am one,) and it is incredibly dispiriting when nothing you do gets good results. I suppose the answer might be that from "down here" with our limited viewpoint, we can't see the long-term outcome of any action and therefore have to trust that God can bring something good out of the earthly mess? A bit bleak, though, isn't it?
Thanks pinxit. That can be a real problem and for some of us it is paralysing. The problem is, as you say, we only know what we know. I have done some things I'd rather not have done but I know I've done them with the best of intentions. I have also done things I'd rather not have done without those good intentions, I'm not trying to make myself out to be any way near perfect here. In the end, I have to ask myself what is the loving thing to do here (as far as I can tell, as far as I am able to respond, as far as anything is within my power), and then get on and do it. Too much navel gazing only leads to an obsession with fluff! (there is a loocal teacher who used to keep a collection of navel fluff. What a weird fact to share! Not everything on this bloig is serious, or is it? Sometimes the church throws too much penitenmce at us - I remember Steven Dawes complaining about the number of times we were to confess on SWMTC; we'd barely time to think about doing or thinking anything amiss from the last time we confessed. Anyway, sometimes we just have to accept that we're doing the best we can and get on with it; accepting ourselves as we are accepted in that overflowing grace that is God. Yes, it does seem like a mess sometimes but looking at the mess we can sometimes miss the great things that are grwoing out of it even before our eyes. Anyway, that's what keeps me going. Shalom.
Thanks Julyan, Pinxit. Pinxit, I absolutely know where you are coming from!!!!! Wow, I was talking to Julyan about this yesterday!!! Why do we desire to help others? Is it out of guilt, trying to redeem ourselves because of something we have done in the past that we think is bad or wrong, or do we recognise in someone elses plight our own and believe that in fixing our neigbours problem we may be able to fix our own? Is it just to win peoples approval and to get them to see us as nice people? Or is it out of genuine compassion motivated by Christian faith and love?
The danger is as you say Pinxit that to constantly appraise the motive for action will lead to a state of parlysis. (I am at the moment examining my motives as I consider if I should offer to become a listener/unofficial chaplain figure for my night work colleagues. I am asking myself a nummber of questions, What is my motivation? Am I qualified enough for this? am I strong enough for this? Will it be a success? What are the potential problems? The other question I am asking of myself is will I punish myself for not offering? it seems that sometimes I just can't win with myself!!!!)
I suppose that sometimes it takes courage to pursue a certain action. We have to be courageous enough to examine and to recognise our motives, courageous enough to be prepared to persevere when time after time we just seem to go down one blind alley after the other, or too bounce back up when knocked down. Courageous enough to admit when we are wrong. Courageous enough to say to ourselves "ok I have blown it again but I am not going to beat myself up over this."
The question of feeling dispirited by lack of good results stikes a chord with this particular blogger. What are good results? How do we judge success? Again I have conversations with Julyan about this with regard to launching initiatives at Trinity Church. And I have concluded that the success is in the offering of the best that I can give. And perhaps it is the courage of taking risks in love, the continual offering of all that we are and all that we can give, that we develop our compassionate nature (we exercise it as Julyan puts it in a recent post)fulfil our "loving obligations" (for want of a better phrase) to neighbour and to God, and make a positive difference in the community and world within which we live.
Shalom to you all and your loved ones!
Thanks to you both, Trinityblogger and Julyan. That's very encouraging. "...Success is in the offering of the best that I can give... the courage of taking risks in love... the continual offering of all that we are and all that we can give." We don't know how much Jesus did of this conscience-wrangling that we all seem to do, but he certainly seemed unafraid to take decisive action on the basis of what he saw as right/ needed in any given situation, even when that situation was sprung on him without warning (as the woman with the haemorrhage stopping him when he was on the way to heal someone else.)
I had an experience yesterday where a very painful falling out with a Christian friend which happened years ago was quite suddenly resolved/ healed when that person made contact, we discussed what happened and agreed that we wanted to be in touch and do things together again. I had given up hope on that one and was amazed how our "failure" to understand each other could be repaired so easily, so am feeling particularly thankful. (And I think the faith in God we share made this more possible than it could have been otherwise.) It suggests to me that we should be open to radical shifts in our situation without warning, and take the risks involved in making contact with others even when we have no idea what the outcome will be. And also that God is the Reconciler, not us - we just need to co-operate!
(Maybe Trinityblogger will find there are lots of people just waiting to confide in him at work??!)
Thanks pinxit, in a world full of conflict. it's good to hear of reconciliations. Shalom.
That's great Pinxit!!!!! And thanks for your encouragement at the end of your post. I am hoping to have a meeting with the night manager next week.
Shalom
Pinxit's last post made me realise that I forgot to mention in my last major contribution the importance of having the courage to face rejection. To have our well intentioned offerings thrown back in our face can be a horrific prospect and stops us acting. (ahh so many missed opportunities at the Barn Club lol.) I think of the words reported by the gospel writers where Jesus tells his disciples that he is going to Jerusalem where he will be rejected. Yet he still went. Another example of Jesus being rejected is when he declares in his own town synagogue that he is the one through which Isaiah's prophecy has been fulfilled and is lucky to escape with his life. (Luke 4:18-30) Surely he knew that he was taking a risk here. One thing I think the gospels reveal is that Jesus never failed to challenge the thinking and actions not just of individuals but society. Whether it was his association with tax collectors, sinners and outcasts or agreeing to help the servant of the Roman centurion an accursed enemy of Israel (and heaping praise on him for his faith) or telling the rich young ruler what he didn't really want to here, Jesus never sought the popularity vote. Today as I am sure we are all aware questions are being sought to solve economic envromental and social crises and how humanity as a whole can secure a more peaceful world. The issues are so big, the answers so difficult to find and implement.
Maybe one way for the Church to influence individuals, society and the world in general is to continue to challenge the political economic and in some cases social systems that exist. George W. Bush is apparently this weekend addressing global leaders and defending the principles of the free market that it has brought prosperity. Well as a beneficiary I would have to agree. If I was living in a slum outside a city in Kenya for example because the free market primciples had cause a collapse in my agricultural business causing me to look to the city for work I might not agree.
One thing is for sure many are finding out in the more prosperous countries of the world that the God that is market economics is not as benevolent as they thought
I want to repeat what Julyan said in a recent post "That's why the story of Jesus changing his mind in the Samaritan woman/dogs story is so important to me. It is a picture of vulnerability yes, but also of readiness to learn, to step outside the norms of religion and society, to take the risky road. God bless us with such courage."
Shalom
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